Chase Joy 100 Ways

Enneagram and Motherhood with Melissa Kircher

May 05, 2020 Nicole Groenewald Season 1 Episode 9
Chase Joy 100 Ways
Enneagram and Motherhood with Melissa Kircher
Interview with Melissa
Chase Joy 100 Ways
Enneagram and Motherhood with Melissa Kircher
May 05, 2020 Season 1 Episode 9
Nicole Groenewald

We've been talking about how the enneagram is a powerful tool to find more joy in your life. This real talk with Melissa we talk about how the enneagram is powerful for the really hard times in motherhood. It's good for us moms but it also is a powerful tool to understand our kids better. Additionally how it's useful to guide them to grow through their struggles.

You can find Melissa at

Resources she mentions: 

The Enneagram Institute:
The Wisdom of the Enneagram (book):

The Enneagram Journey Parenting Panel: 

PT. 1:
PT. 2:

You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and don't forget to check out the Academy!

Support the show (

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

We've been talking about how the enneagram is a powerful tool to find more joy in your life. This real talk with Melissa we talk about how the enneagram is powerful for the really hard times in motherhood. It's good for us moms but it also is a powerful tool to understand our kids better. Additionally how it's useful to guide them to grow through their struggles.

You can find Melissa at

Resources she mentions: 

The Enneagram Institute:
The Wisdom of the Enneagram (book):

The Enneagram Journey Parenting Panel: 

PT. 1:
PT. 2:

You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and don't forget to check out the Academy!

Support the show (

spk_0:   0:00
like right now, it's just so hard. It is so hard to parent. We're hot mess at home like it is a hot mess. We are figuring out day today, having kids at home, working everybody's emotions, everybody's and, um, I'll bring it later. Time orientation is a huge thing that I also dio. Everybody's different and we're coming from different places and we're not used to. And and then there's all this fear. There's fear, there's hardship. There's financial things going on. There's people being sick. So I think it's just really important to acknowledge that this is all real great and to use all of maybe what I'm going to say, but also in this time, be extra kind and generous to yourself as a parent and a mother.

spk_1:   1:00
Oh, what Chase joy 100 ways. You got it. Hey, I'm Nicole. When my son was diagnosed with half a heart, it was suggested that we have an abortion. I had a choice to spend the rest of my pregnancy sad and grieving the loss of the hopes for the future, or fight for a more joyful life. No matter what happened, I chose to fight that choice was so transformational that the journey continued. And now I want to inspire you, Teoh, Chase Joy and to support you along that journey. So come along and join me to find out more about how you can chase joy 100 ways. Hey, welcome to the Chase Joy 100 Ways podcast. We have an amazing interview with Melissa talking about how the ending Graham is useful in your motherhood, and it's such a powerful conversation. I teared up a couple of times, and I'm really I think you're going to find it to be so powerful before we dive in. If you are new around here. Hey, welcome. I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you for listening, and I wanted to invite you to check out the academy. But actually, if you've been listening for a while and you haven't checked out, you need Teoh. The link is in the description of this course right now. It's authentic sisterhood academy dot com, but it's moving to chase joy cabinet dot com. You're listening. Not in May of 2020. It's probably hit Chase Joy academy dot com. That's really complicated. I'm sorry. It's part of the process of moving and rebranding. It's messy and started for the dust around here, but let me tell you a little bit about the academy and why you need to check it out If you are looking for more joy in your life, if you are needing more joy in your motherhood, in your marriage, in your whole making, in whatever challenges of life that you find that you need a little bit more joy, the academy has a course or is going to have a course to help you find more joy in that area of your life. We are growing with an ever list of growing courses on. Actually, right now we have a course that's launching Teoh. Tell you more about how you can become a course creator at the academy, whether you are in need of more joy or you'd like to spread the joy, you've got to check out the academy the link because that was just super confusing. The link is in the description of this episode, so come check it out and you can also find up to date links. Instagram dot com slash chase Joy 100 ways. That's the easiest place to find all the up to date information. That's where I hang out the most. So comfort me there. And also, if you're not interested in Academy but you want to come find me anyways, come find me on Instagram at Chase Joy 100 ways. Love to connect with the oh and say hi love meeting my listeners and getting to know how they what they love about the podcast. So without further ado, let's Tim pot into the interview with Melissa. And I'm here with Melissa from any grand paths. She's a ah, like coach anagram, coach and a mom. And I'm so excited to talk with her today about how the any Graham is useful in motherhood. I'm Hey, Melissa. Thanks for joining me. Hi. Thanks for having me. So tell me just a little bit about yourself. Just this around with and tell me you're any graham type.

spk_0:   4:31
Um, okay. I am an any Graham type five, which is the observer and a little bit about myself is that I have been studying the any Graham for

spk_1:   4:44
five for six

spk_0:   4:45
years. I can't remember exactly, but around five or six years, and I was very skeptical of it at the beginning because none of the other personality systems had ever resonated with me and my husband brought it up and I was like, Yeah, and then we were on vacation and he left a book out. You just left it on the table and I don't know, I was a five then. But if you if you know anything about flies, you can't leave a

spk_1:   5:10
book out, we will read

spk_0:   5:11
it. So the book was left out and I was on vacation. I nothing to do. So I picked it up and read it, and that was like,

spk_1:   5:18
This says everything about who I am. It reads my school.

spk_0:   5:21
So I thought it was a four for a year. But it turns out I'm a five with a very strong four wing, Um And then, in true five fashion, I wanted to study everything I could about it and learn everything I could have had it cause it was so intriguing to me. And it also explained people to me. And that was really helpful for me because, um, I tend to be baffled by people. So something that explained other so well really helped me have so much understanding, but also empathy and compassion. Um, so I went to school on the schooling, just ended up also being a coaching program. And as I went through that, I was accepted as a fellow into the coaching fellowship, which is a fellowship of women, Um, that it's in 16 different countries and they accept about think 60 women per fellowship. So it was a huge honor on. I got coached by one of the top coaches in the country, and it was, ah, totally life changing experience, which then, like, oh, maybe coaching is something I like to do. So now anagram, coach certified and a life coat each also certified. And I am a mom and I've been married for how many years always forget. I think it will be 15 years be baby. When I got married, I was 22 we have two kids. My oldest is eight, and he is adopted through foster care and he is African American. And then I had a surprise. Ah, you can have kids after all, baby. 17 months later. So they're 17 months part and I have a daughter who is six, almost seven, and So we have a mixed race, family and adoption and our family and lots of different angiogram Dynamic. So

spk_1:   7:20
yes, Well, and I'm sure that created a lot of extra challenges and motherhood that, um, like, I feel like sometimes when we have challenges and unending part of life like it forces you to grow to be better in that area. So, um, it sounds like you overcome a lot in motherhood and probably still are overcoming a lot. Ah, but sure, a lot. To be able to speak. Teoh is some of the challenges that we all face of motherhood because you've had a few extra. So, um, tell me, eso this has been kind of like, OK, first, I have to say, for those listening, I didn't intentionally go out to find all fives to interview for this Siri's. I think I attract fives to me because my husband also a five, but all of the guests for this whole empire Siri's or fives, except one that's great element. So also, I think it might be that probably the type of person who would want to be interviewed for this kind of serious is most likely a five because they have the knowledge and of dug into it. So this is the kind of random, like people are like, OK, I'm sick of hearing about five. So who just happened to say they wanted to be interviewed? Well, if it house my mantra before most podcast interviews is like, try not to be a five, Melissa, because if you try to know all the things, you just are boring. But if you just kind of get into gotten flow, maybe I get I try really hard to be, like, not a fat be that four type for just a little bit or eight. Yeah, Yeah. Ah, Okay. So one of the questions that I've found really interesting asking each guest cause the answer has been a little bit different for each person. Even though they're all fives is, it seems like any time anyone really like dives into the anagram for the first time. I'm The thing that hooks them is that there's a moment I've letting go of shame or something that they've carried about themselves that they thought was broken and then in the anagram shed light on this part of them that they they thought was broken and actually wasn't. Um and there was just, like relief of that. So was there a moment like that for you when you first kind of discovered all this?

spk_0:   9:32
Um, once I understood I was a five. So about a year into it? Yes, because

spk_1:   9:38
I kind of like it's obviously your true type because

spk_0:   9:40
it was my true type. And so a lot of the four when I thought I was a four. I was not resonating with a lot of the movement of health and disintegration. When I realized I was a five and I realized that fives have a limited amount of energy. It it was like I could cry right in this moment. It was such a relief to understand that about myself because I had been shamed by my parents for that I had been shamed by society for that I had been my husband didn't understand that I would get extremely frustrated. His family can't tell you the amount of like, frustrations that caused, and I would always push myself and be like, Why I'm the first. I'm not big on retreats. But when I do go to retreats, I am always the first to leave. Like I'm always the first to be peace out. I'm done like and I just thought what, even with other fives? Now I see a thing on the Five East five in terms of well, I'm like

spk_1:   10:51
you're a five to Why are you leaving?

spk_0:   10:53
Um, but it was such a relief stint to understand that as a five, I have a limited amount of energy that day, and when it's done, it truly is done. Gave me the permission to see that I was physically sick as a child of it, like a lot. And even as a young adult early in my marriage, I was sick a lot of the time. And as soon as I started being able, Teoh acknowledge, I have really limits and it's okay. There's nothing wrong with me. It's just how I'm wired. And there are a lot of other people that are wired energetically that same way. It gave me the permission to turn off when I needed to turn off, which then actually gave me more energy because I was able to respond to, like, really healthy boundaries instead of pushing myself to have Teoh meet other people's expectations and therefore not on. Lee found a greater wellspring of energy because I was able to say, Now I'm done. I love you all. But peace, like I know to go by myself And then in that there was so much healing like I stopped being cynical the time it was just crazy how my body responded. So not only the emotional healing of just accepting myself for myself, but also really experiencing a lot of physical healing because I allowed my energy to just be where it waas. So that was huge for me.

spk_1:   12:17
I love that, and that's it again, totally different than everyone else insistence. So even though you all are five like that moment of like understanding yourself has been so different. So um yeah, I That's my favorite thing, and I keep I've been asking every guest that because the my main goal for this series is Teoh intrigue people enough to go do the research themselves for what they're type is to dig. It's that and so I feel like having those moments of hearing other stories of like how it was transformational for them, hopefully inspire others to go to go diggin cause it is a little bit of work to figure out your type. Uh, it takes a

spk_0:   12:56
while. It doesn't. I tell most of my clients to give themselves a year and allow miss typing to happen. It's really, really normal to just take a while to dig in and figure it out because it's self awareness and that

spk_1:   13:09
yeah, process. Yeah, definitely. You went to the anagram coaching. And when we talked previously, there was some things about the any graham that you were talking about that we haven't covered on the podcast yet. That was about like that. The head type in the body type and the what was the other

spk_0:   13:27
on the adds, Yes, headed

spk_1:   13:30
heart and got a little bit more. I'm going to give us some framework because I think we're gonna be talking about that a little bit more as we go. So can you give us such an hour lecture of what? That looks like him what that means.

spk_0:   13:41
So in the anagram, there's nine any graham types and they're broken up into triads and, um, the triads that I use in parenting. So I don't use the any grand in speaking to like. I don't speak to my Children about the any Graham. But I use it as something to pay attention to and my Children and watch her patterns. Um, and so these air patterns that happen after looking an adult and so you can talk to other adults and speak about these patterns that happen in triads. And I think the easiest one is the intelligence center, which you just mentioned, which are on the head, the heart and the body. Um, it's basically how we dominantly we have all three. So every person on the anagram in the world has all three head heart body. We just tends to lead with one dominant. Each type has one dominant. So, um, and it's how you take in information to tell you process and taken stimulus from the outside world. Um, you have the feeling or heart triad, and that's twos, threes and fours. And they're constantly their dominant way of proper processing. External stimulation is how I feel. Andi. Then you have excuse me, the thinking triad, which is head, and that is the 56 and seven and they're responding to stimulus with what do I think? And Then there's the Body Triad, which is 89 and one, and they're responding to all of that information and stimulus with what do I dio so spot. It's like bottling energy. Um, the other triad that I do it's stances and stances have to do with. They're a couple different ways. I mean, there's a lot of different any Graham teachers, so I try to congeal of them until they are one thing. And what I've kind of found is senses are a lot about energy. So it's a lot about how you energetically move around in the world, how you and respond and move with others with other people. So relationships, relationships, work. You know, your intimate relationships with your kids and work. You know how how we respond with others. Yeah, how we relate to others. Um, there's the other assertive stance, which is 37 and eight. They are doers. They move. Um, some people call it the aggressive stance, but I like to say a started because it sounds. There's no I don't want any negative connotation with anything. Um, there they do. They speak assertively. They move assertively. They move, sometimes against other people in order to a complete A task or go towards the goal. Um, and a lot of times there, quickly. And there dis ice and they move quickly, and they're very decisive. Um, and I don't know if you want to dio get into, but they're the repressed. They usually are. All they are. We're feeling repressed. So three sevens eights. They have feelings on the last in terms of, like, the intelligence centers. Um, I can go into that later if you want. Or, um because usually people it's more complicated.

spk_1:   17:13
Comes back up as we

spk_0:   17:14
go. Yes. Um, Then there's a compliant, um, stance, which is one twos and sixes, and they move toward and with people. So they're more social relational. Um, they like to be with others, even if they need to be alone. I always say, like a client stance person a 12 or six will be like I need to go on. Ah, I need to be alone. Do you want to go on a yoga retreat with me? We could go be alone together. Yeah, That's just how they move about in the world is just with others. And it's how they get their needs met by with being with others. Um so those one last thing

spk_1:   17:52
is women are the ones that are like come to that offering with me Because I was never that crying. Yes, I didn't understand it. I'm like I could go p I sell Thinks you're sure? Yes.

spk_0:   18:05
Being in the bathroom the compliance and, uh yeah, and as a withdrawn. So I'm a withdrawn I was driving.

spk_1:   18:12
Why? I couldn t promise. I want to be by myself. Actually you like e can't unless you're go. I so

spk_0:   18:25
funny. Ah, yeah. So then the withdrawn type is the last of that triad of the stances, therefore fives and nine and they have an inner frame of reference. So they they do interact with others. But in order to get their needs met and be able to interact with other people, they have to have time low. They have to withdraw and being able to have time to think of process and a moat and feel and bodily move all on their own to then be able to healthfully interact with others.

spk_1:   18:59
That's like that by itself is just so like those even just like forget the other stuff of the types, like just knowing the pieces at like that. That's so good. So let's talk about how we apply some of these things to motherhood. I know we've said we don't type our kids. So how is having this knowledge and like, really like understanding any a gram useful when it comes to parenting our kids and, um loving them and seeing them struggle and like encouraging them through those

spk_0:   19:31
struggles? Um, well, first of all, I think it's important to say that, like any information that I was saying right now, a lot of it is coming pre where we're at all okay, pre the world being completely upended. And so I think I would be remiss without just being fully honest in that. Like, right now, it's just so hard. It is so hard to parent. We're hot mess at home like it is a hot mess. We are figuring out day today, having kids at home, working everybody's emotions. Everybody's and, um, I'll bring it later. Time orientation is a huge thing that I also dio. Everybody's different and we're coming from different places, and we're not used to and and then There's all this fear, there's fear, there's hardship. There's financial things going on. There's people being sick. So I think it's just really important to acknowledge that this is all real great and to use all of maybe what I'm going to say, but also in this time, be extra kind and generous to yourself as a parent and a mother to make a lot of mistakes. Admit that we're all a hot mess. We all have days that we feel like we were drowning and we don't know what we're doing and we make mistakes and have to say I'm sorry and then

spk_1:   20:57
they need to say they're sorry. Oh, you know is

spk_0:   21:00
it's a whole thing right now that I think we need to have a lot of grace and compassion for ourselves. Um, I have

spk_1:   21:08
a two year old. So for him this season of like everyone just being home all the time, he's like loving it and doing great man. He's not aware of all the hard things about this season, so he's just like we get to go on walks more and actually like learned to walk last week, which we have this whole time so, like for him, he's driving. But it's because he's not, like, cognitively aware of all the challenges going on that's like creating people for a lot of other families and challenges. So I'm glad you mentioned that, because sometimes I forget that others are struggling in the differently than we are,

spk_0:   21:46
because, yeah, and it's totally okay for not just this time is like we're having family time, and it's great. That's also totally fine. Like it's just we're all having all these different experiences. Every honest experience is valid and and worthy. You know, whether it's a great experience and it's teaching you or whether you're having such a hard time, that's both is worthy and both a salad. You sure? Um so one thing. I didn't mention his time orientation, which is a really big thing that I also used in parenting that I pay attention to. Um, I find that I find time, orientation, the stances and the intelligence centres to be three things that I use in watching my Children. So as a five, it's I think I have kind of a superpower and watching, but everybody can do this. Everybody. We all know our kids really well. And so what you can dio is go research thes three things go research any graham energy stances. Go research. Um, any grand intelligence centers and go research any graham time orientations and learn first and foremost about yourself. So before paying attention to your kids if you know where you're coming from, it really helps. Because then, you know, like for myself, I'm withdrawn and I get my needs met by being alone. I'm in the thinking triad, so I and being logical, I'm processing my feelings by thinking them on. I have a hard time getting in touch with gut body energy and in order to be healthy, I really need to be conversing and trying to bring up imbalance all Serie. And I'm also, um, in the past time orientation. So it's kind of where my attention and focus is is in the past. I'm thinking through what just happened. I'm trying to logically come up with solutions for problems already happened. I'm fantasizing about things in ways that could be different about what already happened, because I'm in the past time orientation result. I mean, knowing where I'm at helps me first and foremost see where my strengths and parenting can be utilized, and also where there might be a disconnect in what my kids might need. And I think the most important thing is just in any any grandparenting thing that I've ever read or done is knowing yourself first. So well is just the absolute key to not being like not saying I could be a perfect parent. But just the awareness allows you to have grace for yourself, grace for your kids and figure out why there's thes disconnects happening and maybe give, like have compassionate healing versus just being like Why are you like this? Where you like that, you know, with understanding each other better. Um, and then after you really working yourself, pay attention to yourself. I use the any Graham, and the try is the triads to pay attention to what phase they're in at the moment. So Children are constantly changing. They go through phases. Um, most master anagram futures would say not to introduce the system of the any Graham to your kids until they're in there. Some say early, like mid to late teens, because they released um, and then a lot of others say in their twenties. E think it's up to the parent and knowing your kid and seeing the maturity lovable, Um, telling your kid you are this type I made that I made the absolute mistake of telling my kids they were introverts and extroverts. Early on, I said, and I explained what it waas I said, This is how people get energy and you you seem like this. And then I saw them going about life and using my words to try to explain themselves. And I went, Oh, man, I screwed up there, didn't I? Yeah. And

spk_1:   26:12
so so about, like, better to ask questions than to give information.

spk_0:   26:16
Exactly. So it was. It's fine to say, like it was fine for me to explain. This is what an introvert does is that they get energy by being alone. And sometimes you might like that. And sometimes you might feel like you get energy by being other people and vice versa. Like this is what an extrovert is and allowing them to have that, um, information in order to figured out for themselves and talk to me about it.

spk_1:   26:46
Self analysis like let them kind of feel it out for themselves.

spk_0:   26:50
Yes, instead of saying you are because then if I say you are So this is why I say never to to type a kid. You're like to never say you are this because honestly, you could be completely wrong. And they could be trying to live into something that they aren't, and that could be harmful, really harmful and really a lot of work to undo what you say to them that you are. So I always I in my head If you ask me right now, $1000 Unless on each

spk_1:   27:21
kid that what time? I will bet you $1000. And I think this with this wing and the other one is this way for sure. I could absolutely be wrong. They

spk_0:   27:33
could in 10 years, you know, the older jeans and be like, No, that's not who I am. I like Well, I know I don't want to say to them. So what I do is, um I pay attention to what I see happening in patterns, so pay attention to do. I see them acting in ways that seem assertive, generally or compliant, generally or withdrawn generally. And then if I see one emerging as dominant, then what I do is I just try to like number one, encourage that. So, like if I see a child that is assertive, that would be like a 37 and eight that is energetic and out there and out spoken and going after what they want and just moving against people or moving being like it out of my way. I'm doing my own thing, Yeah, I try to encourage that and really healthy ways. Like, for example, my son right now and my daughter and my hasn't three are of the moment in both of our assessments. Assertive and I'm withdrawn, which creates a lot of tension in our family. But my son ah is very driven and video games like he's very driven to complete a task when he decides he wants to do it. And so I really, even though I'm not a fan of the games way, have set times where he's allowed to play and then I try to talk to him about it and I say, Well, you really, I would have quit, like trying to get in that key for that Harry Potter saying You didn't quit. Like good. Good on you. Like I would have been. You didn't, like, good. Like, and try to encourage the insert of assertiveness and show how it's a strength. I also then try to really, um, talk about and model, um, both the compliance dancing, withdrawn stands, Ask questions. Are you tired? If are you you know, Are you hungry? Like, do you need some time alone? Like sometimes our bodies just need time alone like, is that some that you might do? You want to go read on your bed so I don't say, like, this is the withdrawn stance and you might need some more of that. I just tryingto incorporate the balance of things, if that makes any sense. So

spk_1:   29:57
she when everyone's all in the house together all the time and you're waking sibling all the time And like I could see that were like, you know, they start bickering, and you're like, um, I think you guys need, like, maybe some alone time. Like to be aware of that. Like, I feel like it just gives you more awareness. Really? That's kind of what we're alluding to is understanding this framework and structure gives you more awareness of your kids needs on a social emotional level. Not just they need to eat. They need to sleep that, like those kinds of things that helps you understand more of their social emotional needs and how that's different for every kid and different from you.

spk_0:   30:35
Absolutely, because you might in, like your unconscious way of being in the world. Or and I'm item, I, unconsciously in the world think so. And so needs this because I'm just thinking the way I think. But if I have awareness, I can really be paying attention to my child and seeing where they're coming from and try to meet their need based on that or gently and lovingly present opportunities for them to be challenged in ways that help them grow like my assertive kiddo like we're going to do meditations every morning.

spk_1:   31:11
Oh, hated that, I'm sure. Hey, did you know? And my other little

spk_0:   31:20
assertive is is a different number, I think, and she's more gung ho. She's more light hearted, and so she's more willing to entering. But watching her body move, you know, like so it's it's just paying attention to introducing things that you know, and my partner was a lot like this is failing. He's a pretty failure is like a big think Graham. He's like meditation is failing, and I was like, No, it's not. I guess it looks like it's failing, but what we're doing is we're exposing him to what meditation is. And so that sometime later on and in their lives, as as kids and then teens and adults, they'll have this practice that they might later on. It's just like putting a little yeah thing in their brain. The nugget. A tool belt, you know, tool in a tool belt that later on they might go. Oh, I'm really upset. And I have this that I could try meditating. You know, it's just about exposing them to different things. Um,

spk_1:   32:18
I love that, um, how has it helped you having some of this awareness about as appearance? I'm I guess where I'm tackling it a little bit backwards from what you just said, but, um, how is it? Helped you parent R b a better mom, I guess maybe are like a more confident mom, or, like, maybe even just more like because I feel like we're all just doing our best. So I don't want to stay like one. Mom is better than another, but maybe better than your like you could have been, like, how has it helped you step into, like, your best version of being a mom? Um, by understanding this for you like, um, and you being able to show up well as a mom each

spk_0:   33:03
day. Okay, um, I think the story would have to do with time orientation, so Okay, um, there's past present future time orientations past is 459 present is 1 to 6, and future is 378 Again. You have all three. You're capable of being in all three. But you kind of lied with that down. And that's where your head is at all the time. So I am a five, and I am in the past, so I'm just That's just so I'm thinking so I'm just constantly thinking about the past and the more I started being aware of it, it really came up. So before we were all at home and quarantined, Um, and this it's really funny because a lot of the stuff I study a study and study and I think as a five all have all this knowledge. But then was really interesting is that I am doing repressed in my body. Energy is like the last on the list of things. And yet when I let go of thinking and feeling the bodily energy, the gut instinct, energy, that just sort of happens, ends up coming up and being just like the best version of me, you know, and it like. But it doesn't feel like it comes from me at all. It just feels like it bubbles up and it's is cool and strange and weird. And it's a thing I love about the any of them. So my son at the moment exhibits being in the future orientation all all the time, like I don't really experience him being in past or present very much like rifle Graham Das with both my kids are both future at the moment. Be here now. Be here now.

spk_1:   34:46
What happened yesterday like

spk_0:   34:48
and so he had a problem at school. He is, um he has, um, anger issues. And he had He has an i p. So he has special ed stuff because of sensory processing from adoption and emotional processing. And he came home from school and I got a call that said, I kid on the playground punched him and he punched them back. He's eight, so it's It's a big deal. Yeah, it's not like a high school fight kind of thing, Um and so he didn't instigate it. He But he responded and punched back. And so they both got in trouble because that's not okay. And if it had just been me trying to discipline and explain to him why this wasn't acceptable, that he punched back, I would have cited all of the times that he's punched his sister. I would have explained all of his past experiences like you punched this. How back? Oh, for you, like you've done this physically. Did that help like that make

spk_1:   36:00
you feel

spk_0:   36:00
good? I would have just explained all the times in the past and what I ended up doing unconsciously, that I realized later was I explained what had happened at school. So I was. It was a past thing to start with, he said. This happened in school, but in the future, if you don't want to get in trouble, you need to do this. I said, If somebody punches you, you need to immediately go right to a teacher and don't punch them back because they'll get in trouble and you won't get in trouble. And so I gave him a future plan and a future thing and a goal of not getting in trouble because as much as he's assertive, he doesn't like getting a troubles isn't like consequences. So I gave him a future plan of what? To dio and it. I would have never in my life. The next day, the kid punched him again. I'm sure that he was like being like You can't play soccer, You know, I don't think that he was like, totally innocent. I know much, my son, Um, but he didn't punch first. Neither thing, which was like, Wow, that's amazing. And number two out of never in my life that he would have never punched back, which he didn't punch back, and he came home. I got a call from the school saying it's the same kid punched him and he didn't. He went right to a teacher and he said, this is what happened and he shared his feelings and I was like And then I praised him laws. It was using this time orientation that if I had done it my my way and had never thought through the fact that he needs future plans e I don't think it would have worked. I think he would have. He would have punched him back and gotten in trouble. And it was It was in thinking past like it took a while for just again, like, Wow, that was really helpful. So this is like one instance of if I can get out of my own way sometimes to realize what, enough what the child needs. It changes how I react in terms of discipline and talking about feelings physically moving and all that kind of stuff. Yeah,

spk_1:   38:11
thinking back Teoh how you talked about how, like the present chaos of everything it has impacted, like the way we're responding the way it like. It's kind of shifting everything. Um, I do think it will be really interesting to see how this generation like how it's molding them, um, and how they think about the world, because even just like seeing different kids respond in different ways at the grocery store and, like some kids were responding in absolute fear. And they're just terrified to breathe in the store. And other kids are like, I have a little way this mask, whether this, you know, just even seeing those variances in the way that kids are responding, I think is really interesting. So it'll be interesting to see, like, so sociologically as this generation rises up, like how this has impacted them. But I'm curious how you've seen some of these, um, energies and things like that shift in your own family in your own kids. Like have, having seen, like, some of those dynamics changes. They've been home and routines have changed and expectations have maybe changed a little bit. Have you seen any any of like that where it like, it almost seems like types or changing? Or maybe like how types tend to like in that in stress versus in growth, Like how they look different. Have you seen that in the kids play out?

spk_0:   39:30
Uh huh. Yeah, for sure. Um, I haven't seen a shift in any of the three try as I mentioned, so I haven't seen a shift in, um, stances or head heart and body or time orientation over. I've seen an amplification of all of those of her. And I have seen, um how not having, um, Like so for example, if I have so I shouldn't tape your kids. But at the moment, if I had to guess, I would say that my daughter is a seven with an eight wing and my son isn't eight with a seven wing. So both of those are very future oriented. Always planning. I mean, they come out of school. Can we do this? Can we do? I mean, that's the first thing, both of them. And

spk_1:   40:27
you're like, Wait, how was your day? I want to know how everything that that, like it nailed it. And I like, what exactly are bro e Try to meet us in the middle. Like, can we both look good in the present? Somehow it is a

spk_0:   40:44
constant challenge. Um, so if they are numbers, I think they are and just being present, being future oriented, the having to be at home is just being It's just so hard because their little psyches, so they are old enough. It's different when you have little little ones that, um, some are doing well in. Some are doing mediums Emma doing now? Well, I heard a story of a toddler that was like being like, What is today? We're going out today. Are you home? You know, like, what is going on, you know, But there's no routine and like, Why are you home Mommy and Daddy like it was like Is today a day? And I was like,

spk_1:   41:32
Thing I've ever I along the grown ups is today a day. So the toddler's no like they didn't get

spk_0:   41:44
but like not being able to have future things the floor to having camp cancel for the summer. Not being able to say we're going to the zoo, not being able to say we're going on vacation, not being able to say we can go get ice cream like just a very little thing. So I've seen Oh, it makes my heart hurt to see my Children struggle with where they are at like their future organ tid. And they do need that they need to think through plans and have. That's how they're healthy. They need the all three to be balance, but they also need They're just dominant. And so having to tried Teoh, like with my daughter, she needs fun. And so it's really hard to be stuck in a house and not be able to go anywhere and doesn't feel fun. And then she can't look forward to anything fun. So we had to think through like we just, you know, how to melt down sort of day with everybody and my brain. Just some hat, my gut. It wasn't my brain. I got to. Somehow I was like, I'm not super fun. So let's

spk_1:   42:51
think of it like she's

spk_0:   42:52
always has all these ideas because I think she's seven and she's constantly coming up with generating all these fun things. I was like, Let's just get a list. Let's write down all the fun things that you want to do And then let's find what we can do from home. So we had a fun list and I said, We can't do them all now, But now you have things. Look forward to um, I've seen, um, my son, who's in the body I've seen. What I noticed now is that in this phase of his childhood, he seems to be, um, in the body try at and having a ton of emotions that he won't talk about but is throwing. So he has his reactive attachment disorder, so he has issues of tantrums generally. But before this happened, his tantrums had gone down to like once a week. He's an eight year old, and he has like to hope that tantrums and it's a thing with adoption. And, um, that happens to a lot of adopted kids because they have disruption, and so their emotions have a harder time stabilizing. But I know how to separate reactive attack disorder from what has personality. I can see the difference, and I can tell which one seeing, watching him shut down, talking about emotions and having 45 tantrums a day. You know, his body just getting out all the things that he's too afraid to talk about, and then having to just, like, take a deep breath and, like both of us, acknowledged me and my partner that it's exhausting and cry and be frustrated and make mistakes, get snappy, get angry with him, apologize for getting snacking angry and then, for some reason at night, is when he'll talk. And so to really pay attention to base for that. Yeah, like for me, Especially where my energy is done by the night to be like, But I'm gonna have to have energy, cause that's when he soft and vulnerable that's a reserve way. Yeah, preserve the energy to be like this is when he's going to tell me that. Let me. I'm really scared. Like, are my birth parents out there like, Are they sick? Are they dying that kind of stuff, you know? So

spk_1:   45:12
was this a lot like And then, like when you hear him ask that question, it's like, Oh, that's what you've been carrying today?

spk_0:   45:17
Yes, yes, it's coming out their body. It's, uh it's so it's just I don't think I've seen it really change much. I've just seen an excess in all in all three stances, which they seem to the author try Attic centers, which they seem three dominant and yeah, it just seems like an excess. And so it has to be on an excess and myself. So there's just days of hot messes were just terrible and awful on

spk_1:   45:42
days where

spk_0:   45:43
it seems to go find so. But

spk_1:   45:45
what I love about that is like yes, like maybe things are coming out more. But because you have this tool and you understand how this tool works, it's giving you solid resource is to know for your daughter when she's needing more fine, but like how to address that in a way that gives her something future to look forward to. That's fun on and like, meets that need for her. Where is like if you didn't have this tool, it would just lead to, like stress and discord between the two of you all the time, and this season would just exacerbate that, but because you knew how to address it and have at least to some degree Teoh to meet that it took a minute. But yes, it's like because you were able to meet that need for her in some way. Yeah, I'm sure that strengthened the bond you two have to, because you weren't this bickering about like, we're different and this is stressful by she felt, heard and understood. And so that's like I think it's a beautiful thing about this, and parenting is that it helps you how that bond with your kids, where you can better understand them and I think back to I mean just some of my own childhood things that I maybe wouldn't call them trauma, but just times that I just felt really misunderstood, man. So I just think that that's just so powerful that it gives you a framework to better understand these tiny humans who are just so different than

spk_0:   47:08
you for sure. Yeah, I think that's, um, the main thing that I would use the anagram for and parenting is the simple ability to see, disconnect and see frustration and discord and be able to find an investigator enough to get to the root of it and to then understand why somebody is different from you and have compassion, even if that compassion takes a while to get to. And even if you make a 1,000,000 steaks to get there, um, if you can eventually get there, it really does help and it teaches. I mean, they're learning, but I'm learning from them constantly, like they're teaching me so much of what I need to, like, learn and doing B and survive in this time and and thrive in different ways. So it's a tool for empathy, compassion and learning from each other, even parents and kids learning from each other all the time. Yeah,

spk_1:   48:14
um, so if a mom is listening and going like, OK, I need to figure this out, because if this is gonna help me build about a relationship with my kids and he helped us understand each other a little bit better. Where is a good police for them? Teoh, start digging in. I know you mentioned you had some Resource is

spk_0:   48:31
yes. So I would say the any graham institute dot com. I think a second was either dot com or dot org's. But the any Graham Institute, if you Google that and get in the description Yeah, um is one of the biggest and most established, um, websites that has not on Lee. It just has a quick rundown of each any graham type, but it gives a little bit. It's quick and easy, but it gives some depth to it. So you're getting the shorthand, but enough to maybe make you investigated a little bit more. Um, I always stay. I say don't take a test. Most tests air proven like 70% wrong. And they can be really confusing cause you're answering a lot of people gold. Take the angiogram test, even the one on the institute, which is probably the best one out there is still have your answering how you want to be perceived and how you think. I usually recommend, um, reading a book. And I find there are a bunch of different primers out there and they come from because that any Graham is spiritually tool. There's all different kind of backgrounds on DSO. I kind of tend to, um, use this one is neutral, which is the wisdom of the angiogram, and it's thick like a warn you. It's like textbook looking thick is it is it is set up like a textbook. But I love that because you are able to It is written in a way that is not heavy, like you can understand everything. It you can flip through it. You do not have to read a reference tool. It's like a reference book. And so you could be like I think I might be this number. I'm gonna open to that. I want to learn about stances. I'm gonna open up to that, and so you can just usually interact with it without having to sit down and read through a whole book, which can be honestly overwhelming cause it's a very complex system and takes a while to learn. So I would say the wisdom of the anagram, which is by Don Reso and rest Hudson moving about

spk_1:   50:41
the description to for anybody listening. Yeah, and you can always go to our website,

spk_0:   50:45
which is any grand pads dot com. And, um, I have lots of logs I love in the same way kind of that you're interviewing. I love just interviewing all different kinds of people. Um, not necessarily any Graham experts. I just love talking to regular folks and saying, What is your experience like? And I just find it. That's so interesting. Um, I do know that the narrative any a gram. Also, if you look that up, they have YouTube's, which is like, if you figure out your type, they do like panels. So that's kind of the same thing, what you're doing of interviewing a lot of people. What I do in my blog's interviewing a lot of people they have, I think, YouTube panels, which I like ah, panel of force, all talking about their experiences which is really interesting. So you're actually

spk_1:   51:29
not the first person in this Siri's who's mentioned those. So we'll be surely in our big resource list, too. Um, and then your and any Graham life coach Cilluffo. Mama is really struggling. She can reach out to you and you help. Can you tell me a little bit? About what? What you do with that?

spk_0:   51:44
Sure. Um So I'm in any Graham coach and a life coach. I kind of meshed the two together in that the way that I coat? Yeah. So you don't have to have knowledge at the any Graham to do coaching with me. I can do it absolutely without, um, using any Graham. If we have any Graham knowledge and you find that helpful than we use that integrate it so either. Or, um, a lot of what I do is a coach is, um, I think I talk about mental wellness and whole being wellness as like a pie. And there's all these different pieces of the pie, and so I think therapy is incredibly important. Friends are incredibly important. There's ultimate kinds of their, you know, there's EMDR therapy. There's a cognitive behavioral therapy there's acupuncture, there's yoga, others older, present exercise. So coaching is a piece of that pie and the piece of the pie that I think that it really, um, works on his present moment, um, experiences and becoming what you said earlier aware. So as a coach, a lot of what I dio is a lot of deep listening and then mirroring back what I'm hearing in a way that helps people become really aware of the words that they're saying, the thoughts that they're thinking in motion, that they're feeling in a patterned way and then asking questions about is that working for me? Isn't that is that not working for me? And then lovingly inviting questions about how do I want that to change? So it's It's different than I think. Some coaches where they're like, Here's a goal. We're gonna meet that goal. I'm gonna motivate you for me. It's a lot of, um, self love, self care, paying attention to your body and healing through that. So if a mama wants to reach out and just talk about what's going on in her life, please do I love it. It gives me great joy, and I love helping people become more self aware and more, um, self loving and self compassionate.

spk_1:   53:44
That's awesome. I feel like that's if there's any need that I've heard from my community like the last couple of months, like that's been the greatest need is that need for more self care need from our self compassion and just like I feel like it's, um ah, not thinking of a good phrase to explain it, But this time of quarantine just kind of like brings out with already there and amplifies it. So it's like if you're kind of stressed and not doing great, it's made that really obvious. If you're doing pretty well and you have been coping skills, then you like look like you're on fire right now because you're able to cope and handle well. So, like it's like the types like it's amplified those of the amplified like how you're coping with stress and all that. So, um and that's been like that. I think the most predominant thing I've heard from my community is just like I'm struggling and I don't I don't know how to over this, so if that's you, you need to reach out to Melissa because she will be able to help you get a handle on things. I am here. Just reach

spk_0:   54:56
out. I would love to talk to you.

spk_1:   54:58
Awesome. Okay, well, as we wrap up, is there anything else you wanted to

spk_0:   55:01
share? Um, I just think as a mom, we're really just doing our best. And the anagram can be a tool. Help us do our best. And that just love on yourself so much like, we have these giant hearts and, like, we all know that we make mistakes, and that's just totally okay. I think the best thing that one of my sons therapists ever said to me when I was just because I go through traces and feeling like on the greatest mom ever. You know, like, I nailed that, you know, And then it tips and it's

spk_1:   55:37
like, I'm the word love ever

spk_0:   55:39
like. And in both, it's just like you're doing your best. And that's good enough. Like your heart is in the right place. You're trying your best. Every mother, every parent, every father is trying their best. And so to give yourself so much love, um, I just send my love to you because I know that is so needed right now. I love that. I mean, thanks for having me. Yeah.

spk_1:   56:03
Thank you. Um, I remember when my son was not gaining weight and we were doing all of the things, all of the things to make him gain weight. And his doctor started accusing me of not feeding him or like withholding new drinkers like that. I wasn't getting appropriately on those threats of involving CKs. There was threats of admitting him to the hospital to prove that they could force him to gain weight when I couldn't get him to gain weight at home. Um, and I just remember, like crying to my mom about how frustrated and stressed I was. And she was just like, You're the best mom that he could ever have or want. And you're doing your best. And you like I I have never I would never have dreamed that you have would work so hard to not like in a derogatory sense, but just like she is so impressed by how hard I was working. Teoh meet his nutritional needs in a really quality way of like I I was blending his foods and I was like, spending hours a day coming up with a balanced nutritional formulas that had, like, the really high quality fats and making sure his vitamin and take it like I was maybe a little neurotic about the whole thing. Um, but she was just like, you got validation of, like, you are the best mom he could ever want in this moment. And that was just so liberating to me that, like all the mean negative things that the doctors are saying about me, it was just like hearing that and then being able to remind myself that was so good. So, um yes, 100%. I agree that, like, even if things are really hard right now, you are the best mom. But your kids could ever want or ask or on. So, yes, I love that message and it's needed. So thank you. Thank you. Wow, That was a heavy ending. But really, Mama, you are Mama. That your kid needs You are enough. Thank you for joining me today. I hope you loved this as much as I did. If you haven't subscribed yet, do so and then you can get notified when new episodes, air posted. And also, if you've been listening for a little while and you haven't left a ratings and review, would you consider doing so? I know this. It takes a little bit of time and could be a little frustrating. But in doing so, this enables me to get even better, More awesome guests just like Melissa Teoh be on this podcast. So if you haven't done so, he consider that that would be so amazing. And it also helps other mamas like you who are in need of this podcast. Find it so you could be near review that are the amazing. And don't forget to come say hey on social media at Chase Joy. 100 ways. I'm on Facebook and Instagram and go check out the Academy. Like I said in a really confusing weight. The beginning. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I hope that you got just as much value from it as I did. Now go. She's some joy

Interview with Melissa